Sunday, November 15, 2015
Mrs. Dalloway Reading (Pages 48-82)
Read the following information about narration in Mrs. Dalloway HERE. Then use the comments to ask questions, share insights, and/or make predictions about the style and content of the reading assigned in Mrs. Dalloway (pages 48-82 and the post are due by 11/ 19).
NOTE: Your post can also be a reply to a fellow classmate (develop/further the conversation... try not to repeat it).
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It is interesting to read Virginia Woolf's diary entry that is provided on the google doc. It seems to me that she develops her characters through tunneling. I agree with Hillis Miller who claims that "by going deeply into each [character’s] mind, there is a point when the mind of one character and the minds of all characters become one" in Mrs. Dalloway. To do this, Woolf needed to tunnel into her own subconscious.
ReplyDeleteWoolf connects her characters to her own life, an interesting way to develop characters in her novel. She says "I feel I can use up everything I’ve ever thought" which brings up interesting questions to consider.
Is Mrs. Dalloway a direct reflection of Virginia Woolf? or is she more of a projection of Woolf's ideal self?
Looking at the life and events of the author can we make predictions about what will happen to Mrs. Dalloway in the story?
When Woolf writes "by which I tell the past by installments" on how she discovered her tunneling method, does this imply she is taking her own life experiences and putting them directly into Mrs. Dalloway? or is she taking her past experiences and twisting the reality in them to create an ideal situation for the sake of an audience?
I do not think that Clarissa Dalloway is a projection of Woolf's ideal self. Although Clarissa puts on a happy facade, she is restricted by Victorian ideals and the structured oppression of English life. Perhaps Clarissa represents what is wrong with Virginia Woolf in many subtle ways. She is a projection of Virginia Woolf, but I do not think this projection is entirely positive. On an even larger scale, Clarissa may represent how so many people live simple lives where they are subtly repressed towards being normal. This is a reoccurring theme in Mrs. Dalloway because Clarissa is repressed by society and she likewise represses Elizabeth my calling her "my Elizabeth." Clarissa also suppresses her sexuality because it is not accepted in English society. I wonder if these suppressed emotions and personalities will eventually come through in Clarissa, or will they remain hidden beneath her normal life filled with parties and flowers?
DeleteI also think you can apply the restrictions of Victorian ideals on the treatment or lack thereof of mental illness. Woolf criticizes society's understanding of mental illness through Septimus's story line and his affliction of shell shock. Pay particular attention to the way in which the doctors are characterized in the novel.
DeleteI think Mrs. Dalloway is just a representation of what's wrong with Victorian society. As show in the Hours, although Woolf often does wonder why she isn't the ideal host like her sister, she embraces the idea of the mad writer, and prides herself for seeing the subtle things in society that the average person has grown accustomed to. What she does with switching between Septimus and Mrs. Dalloway is to show the similarities between a person with a mental illness and the standard hostess. Everywhere they go, they see images that trigger memories of the past. They both interpret things in their own way, and neither can truly express their thoughts without being deemed crazy. The fact that both a veteran suffering from a mental illness and an upper class hostess have the same internal conflicts highlights the social failure that is Victorian Society.
DeleteI think Mrs. Dalloway is just a representation of what's wrong with Victorian society. As show in the Hours, although Woolf often does wonder why she isn't the ideal host like her sister, she embraces the idea of the mad writer, and prides herself for seeing the subtle things in society that the average person has grown accustomed to. What she does with switching between Septimus and Mrs. Dalloway is to show the similarities between a person with a mental illness and the standard hostess. Everywhere they go, they see images that trigger memories of the past. They both interpret things in their own way, and neither can truly express their thoughts without being deemed crazy. The fact that both a veteran suffering from a mental illness and an upper class hostess have the same internal conflicts highlights the social failure that is Victorian Society.
DeleteJust remember that Mrs. Dalloway and Woolf's writing are not part of the Victorian Era. That ends in 1901. Mrs. D is published in 1925 and is considered a Modern novel. Her writing and modernism ar in part la reaction to and against Victorian ideals but Modernism is an era unto itself.
DeleteI also agree that she put a lot of herself into her characters I believe in ways Clarissa is a reflection of Virginia, but perhaps not a direct reflection. I believe Virginia Woolf created an image in Clarissa that she may have wished to see in herself but did not. I believe there is more of Virginia Woolf in Septimus then any other character in the book. Septimus shows who Virginia Woolf is while Clarissa shows who she wants to be. Comparing the two characters would give depth to Virginia and her thought process while she wrote the novel.
DeleteI also agree that she put a lot of herself into her characters I believe in ways Clarissa is a reflection of Virginia, but perhaps not a direct reflection. I believe Virginia Woolf created an image in Clarissa that she may have wished to see in herself but did not. I believe there is more of Virginia Woolf in Septimus then any other character in the book. Septimus shows who Virginia Woolf is while Clarissa shows who she wants to be. Comparing the two characters would give depth to Virginia and her thought process while she wrote the novel.
DeleteFor me, I saw it as less of a critique of the societal values of any one period, and more of a yearning for personal freedoms. While Wolfe often felt oppressed or lessened by social constructs, she also sought to free herself from the tremendous burden of her illness, of her brilliant yet insidious mind. Septimus serves as an outlet for this. Is he a "shellshocked", crazed veteran? Of course. Yet he is also brilliant and noble in his own way. Even the most shambling of her characters, Wolfe paints with dignity and beautiful suffering, a direct conduit for her own condition
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DeleteAfter reading about tunneling and free indirect discourse, I do think the narration of the novel makes a little more sense. I understand a bit more now that the way the story flows from past to present and from person to person is due to the FID and tunneling, At times I think it becomes a little confusing though because everything flows together so well. It's hard to figure out if people and objects are related. For example, because stream of conscious and the way everything works together so well, I thought Clarissa and Septimus knew each other. I think things get a bit "cloudy" because you aren't really sure sometimes if someone is thinking something or doing it because it never says who is "narrating" what, because of the FID. I got particularly confused when Woolf was writing about Peter Walsh in the park and then the story line suddenly changed to Lucrezia. It's interesting how Peter Walsh takes note of Septimus and Lucrezia and has a completely different perspective on them, then what is actually happening. I don't think I have ever read a book that was written similarly to this, so it's definitely different for me, but I think it is interesting.
ReplyDeleteOne thing that I was a little confused with is the woman who is singing. Is there some symbol or importance to her? I feel like Virginia Woolf would not just put her in the story if there was no meaning, but I cannot figure out why she is important?
I was also confused about why the old woman singing is significant in the story, but after reading the passage a few times, I believe she represents the fact that life keeps moving. As she sings, she is oblivious to those around her and it is mentioned in the text that the woman will be there for "ten million years". When Peter hears the song, he pities the old woman, whereas Rezia feels moved and finds strength in the woman's voice. The woman's song touches people in numerous ways, but she does not care what the world thinks about her life or her music.
DeleteAfter studying this, my main question is does the old woman relate to Mrs. Dalloway in any way?
I was just trying to brainstorm what the significance of the old lady singing could be and I'm thinking that perhaps it has to do with inspiration? Perhaps Clarissa is looking for excitement in her life, something that is worth singing about? Perhaps her encounter with Peter, or her memories of Bourton in summer are reminding her about lost passions?
ReplyDeleteAnother thing I thought of was maybe Clarissa is wishing to express herself as the singing woman is. Perhaps all of the characters are struggling with this.
I know that Virginia Woolf did often criticize the rigid, Victorian ideals that she had to adhere to.
I like your contextual reference to Victorian ideals... here is a link with a bit more background on gender roles during the reign of Queen Victoria: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/trail/victorian_britain/women_home/ideals_womanhood_01.shtml
DeleteWe talked in class about how upset Clarissa was about Peter's "perfect hostess" comment.
DeleteThe article said that men and women lived in ". . .separate spheres - woman in the private sphere of the home and hearth, man in the public sphere of business, politics and [sociability]" (I put brackets for emphasis because I can't italicize)
The fact that women were not supposed to be sociable in the way that men were in those times is interesting. I think that men would be expected to talk about Important Issues, while women were supposed to stay silent.
I think that Clarissa loves to speak and be spoken to, which is something viewed as unfeminine in Victorian times.
She throws these parties to bring people together and socialize. She wants to get her thoughts and ideas into the conversation.
At a party, a hostess more often than not is busy with the planning and guests and making sure everything runs smoothly, I don't think a hostess would necessarily be in the thick of things conversation-wise.
I think Peter's comment so annoyed Clarissa because he was forcing her into the "female sphere" ... maybe implying that her party is silly or feminine , while what she is really trying to do is break out of the victorian ideals.
I view Clarissa as active independent who strives to oppose the feminine expectations in her time period. Although the indirect text of the novel is difficult to follow at times, I think Virginia Woolf does an exceptional job guiding readers into the mind of Clarissa. As readers, it is helpful to view Clarissa from her personal thoughts, but also have a glance at how characters, such as Peter Walsh, see her.
DeleteAs for the party, I think it could possibly be an over arching symbol that relates to the concept of bringing people together. Similar to the motor car accident and the "toffee" airplane clouds in the sky, the party Clarissa is throwing is open to almost anyone who comes her way. I agree with Fiona's statement that Clarissa is attempting to "break out of the victorian ideals". The opportunity to provoke a movement or introduce a new idea is more accessible when people are brought together. I think that by having the party as a back drop in her novel, Virginia Woolf is trying to express, through Clarissa, the need to outreach to the public to improve and change the present Victorian-like society.
One of the most interesting characterizations of Clarissa (and others) involves the event at Bourton and "The death of the soul" Peter recalls in a dream. In the scene, Clarissa mocks a neighboring housemaid and her husband. When Sally brings up the fact "that before they'd married they had a baby," Clarissa reacts strongly, "turning bright pink; somehow contracting; and saying, 'Oh, I shall never be able to speak to her again.'"
DeleteBefore specific characterizations, this was a strange group in that Peter, Sally, and Clarissa, (among others?) are together talking, breaking the separate gender spheres (and probably reflecting Woolf's personal experiences with a similar group we saw in the video).
Concerning Clarissa, the conclusion, at least in Peter's opinion, is that she is constrained as "a girl brought up as she was, knew nothing" but Victorian ideal. As a "girl", especially as one of the upper class, would be most strongly inundated in this culture. The use of "knew" as a potential homophone for "new" is a clever way to reinforce the idea of traditional values.
However, many details throw doubt onto this interpretation. In this scene, it appears to be from Peter's perspective, immediately casting a shadow on these events, especially given the two's strained meeting. Almost contradictory adjectives such as "timid" and "arrogant" also create a muddled view, even though they could potentially work ("timid" about breaking further, "arrogant" of class, etc.). Finally, the shift Sallys' words creates more confusion; Clarissa is already ridiculing the maid, so her sudden emotion is somewhat ambiguous. Part of it seems as if Clarissa is "contracting" or recoiling from the realization that she herself embodies archaic sensibility, turning "pink" and stopping the conversation from embarrassment. Peter's noting of Sally as "bold" and as an effective judge of Clarissa's character implies that Sally may sense this and purposely provoked the reaction. (As a side note, Peter's view of Sally is interesting in that it is more positive than that of Clarissa; this indirectly compares the two and may indicate human denial, since he is infatuated with Clarissa rather than Sally).
Overall, it seems as though Woolf is deepening the context of such expectations by having the titular character fall prey to and then reject them.
I agree. I feel that the readers gain a lot of insight about the gender roles during this time period through Peter Walsh's thoughts. When Clarissa reacts to the fact that her neighbor had a baby before she was married Peter decides that its the "death of her soul", condemning Clarissa's reaction, although it is most likely normal, as women were expected to be, as the article states " pious, respectable and busy". Also while he remembers Clarissa of the past fondly, he remembers her as "timid" which contradicts the ideal Victorian woman, who is "not the weak, passive creature of romantic fiction". Peter serves as a reinforcement for the rejection of Victorian ideals that is prevalent throughout the rest of the novel.
DeletePreviously taking survey of Brit Lit I feel like I am more familiar with the indirect discourse. Even though I am more familiar with this type of language I definitely think that Mrs. Dalloway is very challenging to follow. Along with the indirect discourse I think that not having the book divided into chapters has contributed to my confusion while reading the book because I feel like there is no direction and just a long stream of consciousness from different characters that are confusing to decipher between.
ReplyDeleteIt really confuses me when Peter falls asleep on the park bench and dreams because I am not really sure what part of the text is him dreaming and what part of the text is his reality. I was also confused about the meaning of the fountain because I feel like it has appeared a lot in the text so far. I interpreted it to be the fluidity of the lack of communication between characters but I am not sure the real meaning of it.
I noticed the fountain as I was reading as well. I think that water is an integral symbol in the text, and the fountain is just a piece to this symbol puzzle. When Peter and Clarissa are in the park, Peter wants to confront Clarissa about his strong love for her, since their summer spent together at Burton. The narrator describes that, “they stood with the fountain between them, the spout (it was broken) dribbling water incessantly” (64). I think that her the fountain does represent that lack of fluid communication between Peter and Clarissa— the communication seems to be weak and dribbling, just like the water of the fountain. I think that Clarissa’s decision to chose Richard over Peter is what broke the communication between her and Peter— this is symbolized by the broken water pump. Later in the reading, the symbol of water occurs again, as the narrator describes solidarity as, “cold as an icicle” (80). Also, when Richard finally tries to confront Clarissa with his feeling, “the voice of an ancient spring spouting from the earth” (80)— this spring could be used as symbol for communication as well, maybe just like a spring bubbles with water, communication may bubble up again between the characters because Peter finally said what he needed to say?
DeleteI definitely agree that this type of narration is hard to follow. I was also confused by Emma's example. After Peter falls asleep, it seems like the narration is going to shift to the nurse’s point of view (on page 56), but it is kind of unclear as to who the “speaker” of this part is. Although there is no subject named, it seems like this brief section is describing Peter as the “solitary traveller.” This scene also left me questioning the significance of the grey nurse. Does she symbolize something?
DeleteAlso, even though the use of tunneling allows for the very smooth flow of the different points of view, it seems like certain characters “interrupt” other characters’ thoughts. This writing technique mirrors the instances in the plot where the characters interrupt each other and when their flashbacks interrupt their current actions. For example, Peter’s return from India is rather abrupt. He interrupts Clarissa’s party planning, which causes her to keep thinking back to when they were together and when she was with Sally at Bourton. Also, after his run in with Clarissa, Peter is unable to stop thinking about the summer at Bourton, which, I think, goes along with what Grace is saying in her post. Maybe they have unresolved feelings for each other, even though both are with other people.
I think water is definitely an essential piece to this novel. Already we have seen it in three forms: the waves, the fountain, and the lake. I agree that the fountain seems to serve as a parallel to the lack of fluidity in Clarissa and Peter’s relationship. The placement of the fountain is also representative of the difference between their two lives, both with different views of the fountain and life. The lake at Bourton seems to represent her thoughts of her youth and the adventure and spontaneity in these moments. Both these elements of water communicate in waves. I think these waves are a good representation of time in the novel. Each of these rises and falls in her life can be described by the lifting, crashing, and fleeting of waves.
DeleteIt also seems that water can explain the flow of narration through characters and time periods. The flow and continuity in life and between moments seems to be something Woolf highlights. Specifically in this section as Richard gets her flowers the scene fluently transitions to the past where he had given her flowers before.
Water is definitely a prominent symbol throughout the novel so far. It , comes up in various forms, but I think it essentially represents the ups and downs of life and the fluctuations of time. Time skips from the present to the past quite often in this novel. Small details or events may trigger a character's memory back to the past. I find that this can be a bit confusing because it happens often and the transitions are not entirely clear. The water also may represent the constant flow of life. Life does not stop or skip from or to past and present which contrasts with the characters' tendencies to do so.
DeleteTo agree with those that previously commented, I think this novel is very hard to understand and to follow. However, I feel that I did get some real insight into Peter's character in the beginning of this reading. I don't think we can ignore this characterization of Peter that Woolf provided because this was the first time we went fairly deep into another character's thoughts besides Clarissa's, which was interesting to me because I was under the impression that the novel would be mainly Clarissa's perspective. Peter regrets crying in front of Clarissa, yet feels that "there was always something cold in Clarissa". Despite saying this, I think it becomes clear that Peter misses something about Clarissa because he cannot stop thinking about how "Clarissa refused (him)". I feel like Woolf uses this to hint to readers that Clarissa also misses something about Peter too. We then see Peter feeling "free" as he walks through London. I found this to be sort of a parallel to Clarissa because she also finds some sort of comfort in walking through the busy streets of the city. Peter also begins to question his life: "What is it? Where am I?" which is similar to how Clarissa wonders if she is really content with the life that she has. I am not sure yet that I would so far as to say that the purpose of Peter's character is to parallel Clarissa, though it is clear that he is used to help characterize her. I wonder if Peter will continue to characterize Clarissa.
ReplyDeleteI agree with this comment and believe that Peter can serve as a parallel to Clarissa on a spiritual level. However, they also differ vastly in their personalities and actions. When Peter states that Clarissa will be "the perfect hostess", it is meant to be a cutting and derogatory critique. However, I believe that there is yet a part of Peter that longs to attain the same people skills that Clarissa possesses. He tells her this to hurt her, but there is also a sense of jealously that is the underlying factor of this interaction. Peter cannot respect the way Clarissa concerns herself with trivialities such as parties and dresses, yet he secretly admires her way with people and how effortlessly she is able to unite them.
ReplyDeleteI agree with many others that the novel is hard to understand, and I find myself re-reading passages often. I think the indirect discourse, and how Woolf "weaves a character’s thoughts into the narrative in such a way that it is hard to tell" who is thinking makes the text hard to understand. I agree with Sarah in that Peter longs to be more like Clarissa. He feels that Daisy would seem plain in comparison to Clarissa, and is overall eager to impress her.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Kate that the reading is fairly hard to comprehend and it takes time to fully understand who is talking what is going on and what important things come out of each passage. However. I enjoy this challenge because once I understand what is going on I can fully understand the minds of the characters and the themes Woolf is trying to portray. I also beilieve that this story and woolfs writing style highlights is a prime example of the idea that this story is almost a case astudy about the everyday minds of the characters and what they think, beilive, and perspective on certain areas of conflict.
DeleteI agree with Kate that the reading is fairly hard to comprehend and it takes time to fully understand who is talking what is going on and what important things come out of each passage. However. I enjoy this challenge because once I understand what is going on I can fully understand the minds of the characters and the themes Woolf is trying to portray. I also beilieve that this story and woolfs writing style highlights is a prime example of the idea that this story is almost a case astudy about the everyday minds of the characters and what they think, beilive, and perspective on certain areas of conflict.
DeleteEven though that the reading is harder to understand during the first read, I think that this style of writing creates more depth to the novel because the novel so far has been about Clarissa trying to find herself within her past and present. And with this style of writing, the reader really needs to detect who is speaking and what the deeper meaning is. The idea that Peter is a parallel to Clarissa is really interesting to me because at first they seemed so different but eventually you would be able to directly compare and contrast their characters which would then give insight to Clarissa's beliefs and also to Virginia Wolfe. I think that they are both trying to understand themselves and what they desire while trying to simultaneously live in the past and the present.
DeleteHere are some of my running notes as I was reading.
ReplyDeleteHe was passionately in love with Clarissa but at the same time she annoyed him with her arrogant, unimaginative and prudish nature. Her manner annoyed him. He also called Sally “an attractive creature, totally unlike her(Clarissa)” They would also fight without even speaking, Peter and Clarissa. When he saw Richard and Clarissa together for the first time, he knew that that was going to be the man she will marry. Afterwards, he wanted to hurt her, insult her by calling her the perfect hostess, as he was hurt himself.
Septimus said he knew the ways of the world, is that what Virginia Woolf felt like when she was having one of her spells of mental illness? When he imagined he was no longer married because his wife took of her ring, he thought of it both in agony and in relief.
Was it Septimus and his wife that Peter saw in the street on page 70?
Hugh Whitbread is everything that’s wrong with the British middle class. Then again Peter makes a comment about how Clarissa is neither strikingly beautiful nor particularly clever. Yet he in deeply in love with her???
Clarissa, after her sister’s death (much like VW’s sister) “thought there were no gods, no one to blame; and so she evolved this atheist’s religion of doing good for the sake of goodness”(78). This was probably very controversial for VW to think, so to write it down and sell it is very bold, I’m presuming.
Here are some of my running notes as I was reading.
ReplyDeleteHe was passionately in love with Clarissa but at the same time she annoyed him with her arrogant, unimaginative and prudish nature. Her manner annoyed him. He also called Sally “an attractive creature, totally unlike her(Clarissa)” They would also fight without even speaking, Peter and Clarissa. When he saw Richard and Clarissa together for the first time, he knew that that was going to be the man she will marry. Afterwards, he wanted to hurt her, insult her by calling her the perfect hostess, as he was hurt himself.
Septimus said he knew the ways of the world, is that what Virginia Woolf felt like when she was having one of her spells of mental illness? When he imagined he was no longer married because his wife took of her ring, he thought of it both in agony and in relief.
Was it Septimus and his wife that Peter saw in the street on page 70?
Hugh Whitbread is everything that’s wrong with the British middle class. Then again Peter makes a comment about how Clarissa is neither strikingly beautiful nor particularly clever. Yet he in deeply in love with her???
Clarissa, after her sister’s death (much like VW’s sister) “thought there were no gods, no one to blame; and so she evolved this atheist’s religion of doing good for the sake of goodness”(78). This was probably very controversial for VW to think, so to write it down and sell it is very bold, I’m presuming.
I agree with multiple other comments that the indirect discourse makes it a bit more difficult to understand the plot of the story, so because of that it is hard to be completely immersed in the book since the reader is constantly focused on paying attention to who is thinking what. However, I think this style of writing is excellent at conveying across moments and instantaneous feelings to the reader. For example when Clarissa is walking down Bond street in high traffic and pauses, reflecting on the ebb and flow of life and about her own inevitable passage into the afterlife. Though it may seem incredibly deep for a morning walk, I think most people have had these thoughts and feelings at least once. Another moment is when Peter is walking in the park after leaving Clarissa's house, and passes Septimus and Lucrezia, thinking fondly about how cute they are having a fight. The reality is that both Septimus and Lucrezia have almost given up hope. The indirect discourse shows the reader both Peter' blindness to the situation as well as how isolated every individual really is.
ReplyDeleteAn aspect of the book that I enjoyed was in fact the tunneling. Tunneling not only creates more interest in the characters, it provides more depth and mystery. Tunnelling also allows for the reader to be both in the present and the past at the same time. Regarding the syntax, the indirect discourse made understanding the book more challenging. Nevertheless, I was able to get used to it, though occasionally I would have to reread it. I do think that it fits in perfectly with the idea of writing a character's "stream of consciousness." Our thoughts jumble and jump back and forth to different ideas, which was the feeling that Virginia Woolf was trying to get across.
ReplyDeleteAn aspect of the book that I enjoyed was in fact the tunneling. Tunneling not only creates more interest in the characters, it provides more depth and mystery. Tunnelling also allows for the reader to be both in the present and the past at the same time. Regarding the syntax, the indirect discourse made understanding the book more challenging. Nevertheless, I was able to get used to it, though occasionally I would have to reread it. I do think that it fits in perfectly with the idea of writing a character's "stream of consciousness." Our thoughts jumble and jump back and forth to different ideas, which was the feeling that Virginia Woolf was trying to get across.
ReplyDeleteWhile I understand the use of the free indirect discourse, and i believe it is extremely effective, I despise attempting to read it. I think Woolf's goal was to create some kind of confusion, and to also allow the thoughts to blend together, almost to create the effect that there is one cohesive character that is a mashup of all of the characters in the novel. Especially because it is often difficult to discern seperate thoughts by what they are thinking, it makes everyone in the story seem the same. Septimus is the only one that is obviously different, and this fits his character as the outsider. Virginia Woolf uses free indirect discourse effectively to create controlled confusion in the story
ReplyDeleteWhile I agree with what Adam has stated about Woolf trying to confuse the audience I have to disagree with his stand point on the style. I think the novel would be incomplete without some sort of confusion. Although it made it more challenging to read it also gave the novel more depth. Within itself the confusion is symbolic to the novel.
DeleteI agree with many of comments. Free Indirect Discourse made the novel more difficult for me to understand page by page, however it allows for effective illumination of the greater purpose to the text. In addition I think the complex nature to the structure of the text also relates back to the complex nature of human experience that Woolf was striving to illustrate. The thoughts and experiences of Clarissa and Septimus were especially effected by the use of free indirect discourse in part because their stories are so distinct, but yet incredibly intertwined. This made it challenging to separate their individual thoughts, but also helped highlight the clear mirror image they act as for one another.
ReplyDelete