Wednesday, December 2, 2015
Mrs. Dalloway (102-151)
Comment on this section of reading. You may focus on Septimus's death so that you can cull resources and insights to expand your preliminary essay on his character. We will be expanding that essay into our final essay on the novel instead of writing an additional paper.
Addendum: Post group notes on characters/scenes here as well.
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Personally, I found this section of reading to be pretty boring up until Elizabeth and Miss Kilman went out together. I wasn’t really sure what the significance of the text was at first. I wasn’t sure why it was important that Richard Lady Bruton and Hugh had lunch and why the letter was important.
ReplyDeleteShifting to Septimus’ death - I found it a bit confusing why all of a sudden Septimus snapped out of it and felt normal? Is it because he knew somewhere inside himself he was going to die, and he felt at peace for once? I’m also curious about his writings and why he wanted them to be burnt so badly? I found it very interesting how Dr. Holmes say he doesn’t understand why Septimus would kill himself. Most doctors would “understand” because they know what their patients are going through. I think this just shows the difference between Septimus’ doctors and himself, highlighting the different mindsets of Septimus and society. Septimus’ wife understands why he kills himself, but the rest of society does not.
I was thinking the same thing about him sort of going back to normal. I think that you're definitely right, that deep down he knew that he would finally be able to be free from all the pain he had to deal with. It seems like he actually feels happy.
DeleteI was also kind of confused about the writings. I'm not sure if this is right, but what I took away from that part was that his writings may have been about the war or his illness, so maybe he didn't want people to see what he had gone through. I thought of it as a way of having some sort of privacy.
I also found his death quite confusing, but I think you brought some good points about it. I'm not sure that he completely snapped out of it and went back to normal, but I do think we do see some sort of change in him. Personally I feel like he didn't want to die, but he felt it was his only option because he was so alone. I also think it is interesting to note that he thinks "Life was good" before he died. Again, highlighting that he recognizes that he did have a good life, despite how affected he was by the war.
DeleteI agree with Grace's point about Septimus not wanting to die. When he decides to commit suicide, he says that he will "wait until the last moment" because "life was good, the sun was hot, but it was people... What did they want?" Septimus is able to enjoy the beauties of the world. His mental and emotionally conflict or insanity is drawn from the tendencies of human nature (in this case the doctors). The doctors do not understand why he kills himself because they are extremely mechanical and unsympathetic in their treatments. Septimus did not want to escape life necessarily, he just wished to avoid conformity. In order to avoid the bearings of society he kills himself and by doing so he is making one last attempt to define himself.
DeleteI felt as though his death was very predictable with his character because with his post-war trauma, his responses to certain things were rash. Also, many times he said that he was going to kill himself so it was not surprising when he did. When he said "I'll give it to you" he was literally giving his body to the doctor while purposely not giving the doctor his soul for he was still living on his own terms. By Holme's calling Septimus a coward, the reader feels more sympathetic towards those battling mental illness (giving insight to Virginia Woolf's life). I thought that this was a good ending for Septimus' story because it seemed as though Rezia finally understand him after pages and pages of her being confused and embarrassed by his actions.
ReplyDeleteI also thought this was a good ending for Septimus. He seemed to have a moment of clarity, where he was himself and enjoying his time with Rezia. The moment made his death less saddening, because he got to be himself one more time. I was confused when Septimus said "I'll give it to you" but how you explained it makes sense.
DeleteI feel the same way. I wasn't really sad when I read because his character evolved into his ideal self. His flash of "normalcy" is a glimpse of what could be, but when Holmes arrives, the war and everything comes flooding back in. We realize his mental state is more of a cyclical pattern that is so difficult to escape from. When he decides to kill himself, he comes to peace with the fact that his life will never be the same. It comes to a point where Rezia understands where he is coming from, and he is in a sense "free" from social conformity.
DeleteI feel the same way. I wasn't really sad when I read because his character evolved into his ideal self. His flash of "normalcy" is a glimpse of what could be, but when Holmes arrives, the war and everything comes flooding back in. We realize his mental state is more of a cyclical pattern that is so difficult to escape from. When he decides to kill himself, he comes to peace with the fact that his life will never be the same. It comes to a point where Rezia understands where he is coming from, and he is in a sense "free" from social conformity.
DeleteGroup 7 pages 145-151
ReplyDeleteThis passage shows how when society’s standards are imposed and forced upon Septimus he goes crazy and does not know how to deal with what he is feeling. But when he’s alone with Rezia he’s able to see past everything and find peace and clarity. For Septimus, beauty is anything aside from conformity. Bradshaw and Holmes represent humanity which stands for the evil of conformity. When Septimus jumps out the window, Rezia understands why he did, showing that she can see the same beauty that Septimus sees because she identifies with him and recognizes his conflict. This shows a shift in Rezia from her being confused and ashamed of Septimus and his behavior to understanding his actions. The doctors do not understand why Septimus kills himself which shows the divide between society and Septimus’s individual perception.
Add some quotes...
Delete
Deletepassage on page 147 (human nature)
"Let her sleep...Dr. Holmes" 151
"But he would wait till the very last moment. Life was good. The sun was hot. Only human beings-- what did they want?" (149).
Delete"...and he flung himself vigorously, violently down..."(149).
"The coward!" cried Doctor Holmes, bursting the door open" (149).
"She saw the large outline of his body standing dark against the window. So that was Dr. Holmes" (151)
Hugh Whitbread stops to buy Evelyn a necklace => Richard thinks this is silly and meaningless
ReplyDeletehe doesn’t buy Clarissa gifts
then Richard thinks of how “Peter Walsh had loved [Clarissa] so passionately” (114)
decides to get her a present afterall
maybe Richard is insecure about whether Clarissa truly loves him or not
later Richard goes home to tell Clarissa he loves her after hearing that Peter Walsh is in town
buys her flowers to show that she is his, not Peter’s
“spider’s thread between himself and Clarissa” (115) - represents the connection and humanity between people, worried that his connection with her is waning
was jealous of Peter’s relationship with Clarissa, maybe still has doubts
“this feeling about her when they spoke of Peter Walsh” (115) - definitely seems jealous of their past relationship
“because it is a thousand pities never to say what one feels” (116) - goes along with the idea that time passes quickly and you have to use it wisely
doesn’t end up telling Clarissa what he wanted to tell her - back to the insecurities/doubts?
Group 2 pg. 112-117
DeleteElizabeth pgs. 134-139 (stop @ “omnibus”)
ReplyDelete“People were beginning to compare her to popular trees,early dawn, hyacinths, fawns, running water, and garden lilies, and it made her life a burden to her”
-People were trying to confine Elizabeth and just make her out to be a pretty girl. But Elizabeth rejects this characterization because she wants to be so much more than just the perfect housewife.
“In short she would like to have a profession. She would become a doctor, a farmer, possibly go into Parliament”
-She doesn’t want to just be a lily. She wants to do more with her life than what is expected of women at the time. But she feels confined by society’s expectations
“And it was much better to say nothing about it. It seemed so silly”
-Society has labeled her aspirations as silly
“Boarded the omnibus, in front of everyone”
-Competent
“London was so dreary compared with being alone in the country with her father and the dogs”(135)
-does not mention her mother. She feels like her mom doesn’t understand her.
“Her mother would not like her to be wandering off alone like this”.
-Her mom wants to bring people together but Elizabeth likes to be alone.
“So she might be a doctor. She might be a farmer”
-Opposing Victorian ideals, giving women more power
“For every man fell in love with her, and she was really awfully bored. For it was beginning. Her mother could see that- the compliments were the beginning”(135)
-Clarissa relates this to her own youth. This is the way she used to feel- But Clarissa was not as strong as Elizabeth is.
“That she did not care about it- for instance for her clothes- sometimes worried Clarissa, but perhaps it was well...it proves she has a heart”(135)
-Clarissa is concerned that Elizabeth won’t be successful and make mistakes she was always fearful of. But it shows that Elizabeth cares beyond the surface.
“For no Dalloways came down the stand daily; she was a pioneer, a stray, venturing, trusting”(137).
-She is independent. She wants to be different from how she is supposed to be as a Dalloway. She is not defined by her last name.
“In many ways, her mother felt, she was very immature”(137)
-Her mother doesn’t even expect anything from her, and doesn’t give Elizabeth credit for having mind of her own.
-Irony is Clarissa does not empowered her- even though she understand how it feels to be confined by elite society.
-Clarissa relies on others, Elizabeth wants to be independent.
-Clarissa is intrigued by the idea of rebellion but does not fully pursue it because she is fearful. Meanwhile Elizabeth is empowered by it- has an element of her father's ambition
Richard brings Clarissa pillow and quilt for a nap
ReplyDeleteClarissa is fake and puts on face for Mrs. Killman but hates her.
Clarissa hates Mrs. Killman because she is poor
Obsessed with Ellie coming to show how shallow she is
Doesn’t invite lower people because it would ruin the image of the party and is straight up shallow/ perfect hostess.
Elitism.
Could be foreshadowing for how the party will go.
While she is at home she acts as her true self
Half perfect hostess half profound thinker
Pages 128-133: Miss Killman
ReplyDelete-Miss Kilman does not like Clarissa and is upset, calling her ugly and clumsy
- Miss. Kilman and Elizabeth are shopping
-Green macintosh coat- symbolizes ugliness
-Miss. Kilman has strong opinions that she tries to push onto Elizabeth
- “She must not let parties absorb her” - miss kilman to elizabeth
-”I never go to parties,’ said Miss. Kilman, just to keep Elizabeth from going ‘people never ask me to go to parties”
elements of establishmentarianism (and the hypocrisy/paradox)
organized religion vs personal spirituality
virtues, how somebody who is an atheist can be more spiritual than somebody who blindly follows rituals and rules
Pages 128-133: Miss Killman
ReplyDelete-Miss Kilman does not like Clarissa and is upset, calling her ugly and clumsy
- Miss. Kilman and Elizabeth are shopping
-Green macintosh coat- symbolizes ugliness
-Miss. Kilman has strong opinions that she tries to push onto Elizabeth
- “She must not let parties absorb her” - miss kilman to elizabeth
-”I never go to parties,’ said Miss. Kilman, just to keep Elizabeth from going ‘people never ask me to go to parties”
elements of establishmentarianism (and the hypocrisy/paradox)
organized religion vs personal spirituality
virtues, how somebody who is an atheist can be more spiritual than somebody who blindly follows rituals and rules
Overview:
ReplyDeleteLady Bruton goes to lunch with Richard and hugh and they talk about Peter Walsh returning/ “How’s Clarissa?”
Lady Bruton thinking that she is powerful, but she needs help with writing a letter - humor
“She had perhaps lost her sense of proportion” - connects to Septimus, Dr. Bradshaw
Lady Bruton keeps mentioning she likes Richard over Hugh.
So focused on class.
Hugh-“He had been afloat on the cream of English society for fifty-five years” (103).
Lady Bruton’s inability to write the letter to the Times / using Hugh to write the letter even though she thinks so lowly of him
“And they went further and further from her, being attached to her by a thin thread (since they had lunched with her) ... as a single spider's thread is blotted with raindrops, and burdened, sags down.”
Lady Bruton thinks they’re all close, but they really aren’t and as they physically walk away their connections diminish
Also connects to Keats and Septimus because all 3 have this imaginary idea of the world that is much different from a harsher reality
Tunneling-Richard, Hugh, and Lady Bruton are connected since they are all witnesses to Peter Walsh and Clarissa’s love… they are gossiping about it at lunch
Purpose of Lady Bruton:
Shows gender roles-”Lady Bruton had the reputation of being more interested in politics than people; of talking like a man” (105).
Virginia Woolf is criticizing the social system of society through Lady Bruton
When men are at lunch, she acts differently-starts as a strong female character and grows weaker,more obedient and quiet while she eats with the men.
Unlike Clarissa, Lady Bruton is not impressed by Hugh’s status in society and wealth
Pages 102-112
DeleteI found it ironic that as Peter passes by the ambulance which has come to retrieve Spetimus's corpse, he takes pride in the advancement and betterment of modern civilization. The comedy in this is that it is society and the "civilized" world that are to blame for Septimus's death in the first place. Firstly, he would not have been sent off to war as a young boy if it were not for the violent tendencies of humanity. Secondly, it is this exact same society that pressured him to become a man and enlist in battle that turns his back on him and makes him an outcast when he returns, scarred. If anything, the ambulance represents the futility of civilization and a lack of morality.
ReplyDeleteI found it ironic that as Peter passes by the ambulance which has come to retrieve Septimus's corpse, he takes pride in the advancement and betterment of modern civilization. The comedy in this is that it is society and the "civilized" world that are to blame for Septimus's death in the first place. Firstly, he would not have been sent off to war as a young boy if it were not for the violent tendencies of humanity. Secondly, it is this exact same society that pressured him to become a man and enlist in battle that turns his back on him and makes him an outcast when he returns, scarred. If anything, the ambulance represents the futility of civilization and a lack of morality.
ReplyDeleteI actually enjoyed Septimus's death due to the fact that i believe it finally freed him of the pain in his life, and he was happy at the end. As much as i enjoyed Septimus as a character, it is because i liked him i thought Woolf did a fantastic job with his death. Although there is an impending doom, so to speak, of the doctors coming to take him away, he is happy in his final moments. I also was pleased that Rezia knows that Septimus is happy with his death, and she is finally free herself. Overall, while death is a tragic and horrible event in most cases, i think in this situation is was positive in that it ended a lot of pain and closed a life in a moment of happiness.
ReplyDeleteI actually enjoyed Septimus's death due to the fact that i believe it finally freed him of the pain in his life, and he was happy at the end. As much as i enjoyed Septimus as a character, it is because i liked him i thought Woolf did a fantastic job with his death. Although there is an impending doom, so to speak, of the doctors coming to take him away, he is happy in his final moments. I also was pleased that Rezia knows that Septimus is happy with his death, and she is finally free herself. Overall, while death is a tragic and horrible event in most cases, i think in this situation is was positive in that it ended a lot of pain and closed a life in a moment of happiness.
ReplyDelete